LJ Idol - Topic 5 - Old Timey Religion

[aggienaut]

   "Let's get back to the city, the religious nuts out here kind of freak me out" says the girl, grasping the boy's arm.

   "Oh, they're just, you know, old timey" reassures the lad, as if this explains it. "They mean well, really"

   "They're so damn conservative though, lord knows what I might accidentally do and have them accusing me of sorcery." Coming upon the edge of town she was relieved to look up and see the city itself not too far off.

   "Haha no one's going to be burning anyone at the stake" says the lad, giving her a playful bump sideways as they walked, "they're just, you know, farmers, and things are slow to change out here."

   "Just as long as the religious nuts don't get control of the government again!" exclaims the girl, feeling more at ease to speak freely now that they were away from the nearest houses.

   "I don't think that could happen again," speculates the lad, recalling a recent leader who had started an unsuccessful war in the Middle East.. and died there. "Valentinian's got a handle on things, I don't think it will ever happen again" notes the boy.

   "Damn pagans," grumbles the girl, adjusting her tunic. "How much further to Rome?"

---

   I don't understand people who call themselves "Pagans." The word "pagan" comes from latin "pagus," meaning literally "peasants." The modern day "pagans" wouldn't be the new agey hippies of Santa Cruz with their vague supplications to "the Goddess," it would be the "rednecks" and "hillbillies" of the deep Christian backwaters. "Pagan" means simply "the religion of the backwaters."

   Or at best, it is not a specific religion. Saying you're "a pagan" is like a Christian describing himself as an infidel because that's what an intolerant Muslim might call him.

   Yet still you see people, including many here in LJ Idol (at least last year) who will go on seriously about how their religion is "Pagan." THIS IS NOT A RELIGION. You can be wiccan or norse or believe in Celtic or Gaulish druidism, or one of hundreds of other things that have been called pagan throughout history, or you can be something new agey you're making up as you go along based on whims as they come to you, but I feel like if you call yourself Pagan you are probably keeping alive an insult that the original believers of the religion you're trying to follow would not have appreciated at all.


   In other news, a few years after the above narrative takes place, Valentinian ("the Last Great Roman Emperor") dies and his son Valentinian II has his power usurped by a "pagan" chief of the military. And around it goes.


Picture of the Day

Winged Athena
Roman ruins of Ephesus, near Selcuk, Turkey

And here's a kitten

(and in a continuing series of animals in ruins, a (emo?) snail, a (electric!) hornet, and a zombie.)

***EDIT: NOW WITH A SEQUEL!

Comments

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

I think it's like "Geus" ("Geuzen") - originally yes, an insult, but recuperated by the group and then becoming a proud name to wear. Meanings of words change. I call myself Heathen, or Païenne in French, because it's a broad name covering many religions, one of which I belong to. It's like any of the monotheist religions really - there's many different denominations under one broad umbrella term. More accepted though because it's mainstream :)

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

but the mainstream religions by and large call themselves something of their own invention that more or less describes something about their religion (you know, like presbyterians, who, I'd imagine, worship the holy presbyt).

Except the Catholics who stole the word for "everything," which conveniently ties into a bible verse about how there should be "one, catholic, church" (oops!). And then some christians refer to "christians and catholics" as if the latter isn't part of the former. Ahh religion.

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

Absolutely - that's why I'm Asatrúar, which is a form of modern day Heathenism. Just like my mother is Catholic, a form of modern day Christianity. That's the way I see it at least.

By the way, Geuze is also a very nice beer which stole its name from aforementioned group of 'peasants', so it's not only religion doing it ;)

I think you could probably justify about everything with the right Bible quotes so their argument is probably very valid, yet not. LOL

Igtheism

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

I think I've heard of this "Geuze" beer. And I totally understand naming a religion after a particularly good beer ;D


As to the bible quotes thing, there's actually a word for it and I forget what it is, but a word specifically for the theory that because people can and do completely pick and choose what from the bible they want to believe, they can essentially make it mean absolutely whatever they want it to, it therefore is entirely meaningless. Igtheism!

Re: Igtheism

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

You might have heard of it from me. There's a bar in Oostende called 'De Zeegeuzen' (sea 'geuzen') which serves a special, secret cocktail of liquor to go with their Geuze beer. It's awesome and knocks you out and it really saddens me I can't drink any more because if one alcoholic beverage was worth it, it was a Zeegeuze.

Geuzen. Interesting article because the family de la Marck also owned the castle of Sédan I visited this summer so I'll have to look into the relationship =D

I never heard of Ightheism - but that's an interesting theory. I think it's probably true of any sacred text.

Re: Igtheism

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

I definitely need to visit some time ;D

Re: Igtheism

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes you do. Sédan and Bouillon have their own beers too. Actually I think just about every town here used to have its beer, even though most of them are mass produced now!

Re: Igtheism

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

I think a visit in that direction is definitely somewhere in my future (:

Re: Igtheism

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

Also, I think perhaps the Goddess in the picture is Victoria, as she has attributes I'd identify with Athena Nike. But I could be totally wrong of course ;)

Re: Igtheism

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

Yeah I was thinking it was probably something like that, and that fits with what I vaguely vaguely recall reading while at the site. Greek/Roman gods are not actually my area though.

Though I think now the OCD in me is going to go trawl wiki for clues :D

Victory!

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

bam I just googled "athena ephesus" and the first link that came up was "winged athena, ephesus" with a picture of the bust

Re: Victory!

[agirlnamedluna.livejournal.com]

Yay!

[(Anonymous)]

This is my .02. Not to be taken as authoritative or speaking for everyone.

For me, the word Pagan is more of an identification issue. It's not so much a religion as it is a particular mindset. Utilizing the word "Pagan" is how I find others like myself or others who might be tolerant towards the views I hold. In my experience, I've also found the word "Pagan" to be a catch-all word for those who, while outside the major religions, don't follow some of the more organized "alternative" religions (such as Wicca).

Interesting entry.

[(Anonymous)]

this is lilly_rose btw.

[heethen-crone.livejournal.com]

I use the term "heathen" or Fyrnsidu which is Anglo Saxon heathenism. Yes, our ancestors were called that and it was derogatory but hey, I'm a hick and I can live with it.

[cumaeansibyl.livejournal.com]

I think maybe if you don't feel like explaining Gaulish druidism (or whatever) then "pagan" is a good general description. Helps you sort out the people you meet by their responses, too, which fall into three broad categories:

"Whatever."
"Really? Me too! What flavor?"
"I now believe you to be a Satanist."

You only need to explain yourself in the second case, as the first doesn't care and the third won't listen. :D

[tigrkittn.livejournal.com]

First of all, let's get the latin right:
pagus= district, countryside, rural portions of a civitas
paganus=countryman, peasant

Second, languages are living things. They grow and expand and change. Looking up "pagan" in the nearest dictionary got me this:
1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.

Most of the Pagans I know use the second definition, an umbrella term for polytheistic nature-based faiths. They all have enough in common for it to make sense to have a term to refer to them as a group, much as Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, and Episcopalian are all "Christian".

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

I believe pagus is the root word of paganus, so the "derived from" holds true.


Its like, on the flip side, if someone WAS a "Christian, Jew or Muslim," they went around saying they were "a member of an Abrahamic religion" (an Abrahamist? I'm gonna start saying that). They probably have at least as much in common as the wide variety of things grouped under "pagan." But the umbrella would be considered so broad you'd immediately want to be like "okay well that is daft, which ONE?!"

And what I think is really silly is there's people who do think Pagan itself is a specific religion, not an umbrella. This I think fundamentally fails to understand the situation.

[stormmm.livejournal.com]

Gorgeous!

[millysdaughter.livejournal.com]

I almost never get asked "what is that" about being a Methodist, but I am always more than happy to explain it when somebody cares enough to ask. I would expect people professing ANY faith to be happy to explain it to the curious.
That is, of course, how one evangelizes.

[(Anonymous)]

あと、CDを使ってもいいしね。

[fox-bard.livejournal.com]

The thing I love most about words is that lexicons in every language change over time with the ebb and flow of human events, even the arbitrary reclamation of certain words by fringe social factions seeking belonging followed by the need for motivated empowerment. Then words become deeper, more potent symbols that link like-minded individuals into a cohesive network. At this stage of linguistic evolution (and there are quite a few current examples besides the modern usage of the term "pagan"), it does not matter what the words originally meant - all that matters is what they mean now to the people who use them regularly and thus keep those words alive within a brand new context.

(Said as a linguist, a Latin translator [nothing beats reading Caesar's Gallic Wars in the original!], a historian very familiar with the Italian peninsula, a modern Druid Bard, and a Deist/Pantheist [with just a little dab of atheism] within what is now called the neo-pagan community.)

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

Ah well, I think its one thing if someone knows they're something more specific and uses pagan as an umbrella term. What gets me as people who call themselves "pagan" and think that that in itself is a specific religion. That's like saying "I belong to abrahamic religion!" and thinking that about covers it.

[fox-bard.livejournal.com]

Quite a few fringe groups in history have adopted names that were deemed offensive for various reasons. Reclamation is one (the free usage of the 'N' word used in African-American subculture, to give one example). Shock value is another (terms like Nazi and Witch, within their respective subcultures). A snub in the face of authority is very common - especially among revolutionaries who began as disaffected intelligentsia trying to break through a political glass ceiling (like Whigs and Tories, each in their turn, proving again that politics, landed interests and money make for some exciting bedfellows).

But, all that drivel aside, I've never met a pagan who called themselves a member of the "pagan religion" and didn't mean it as an umbrella without having to put it in so many words. It's rather like saying you're Christian, but not defining it has Catholic or Protestant, or any of the subgroups within each philosophy of ritual and service. As an international motley assortment of free-thinkers, every self-proclaimed 'pagan' has a separate definition of what all this means and what sort of spiritual practice they perform as individuals or as a group of individuals (such as a coven in the Wiccan tradition), or even both. One of the draws is the lack of uniformity, although a great spectrum of uniform groups do exist that provide such structure for those who seek it. We have our conservatives of the old school Gardnerian variety, as well as the free-for-all folks who snag whatever is appealing and work with it. The eclectic nature of the movement makes it hard to pin down and define anything, and people have tried. It's also growing and evolving very quickly with each successive generation since it's upsurge/Renaissance in the 1930s thru 1950s, making it even harder to define.

In terms of social psychology and fringe behaviour, it's really fascinating. And it must be said that most people whom I've had the pleasure of acquainting went through life as social outcasts and misfits in school before they found 'paganism'.

off-topic

[memeworrywort.livejournal.com]

Here's a clip of a performance I had:
http://memeworrywort.livejournal.com/400402.html

[http://users.livejournal.com/_mysticalelf/]

I totally enjoyed reading your entry this week.

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

Thanks. (: I didn't think it was my best work, I had surprising trouble coming up with something for this topic.

[shadowwolf13]

To quote from religioustolerence.org:

There is general agreement that the word "Pagan" comes from the Latin word "paganus." Unfortunately, there is no consensus on the precise meaning of the word in the fifth century CE and before. There are three main interpretations. None has won general acceptance:

Most modern Pagan sources interpret the word to have meant "rustic," "hick," or "country bumpkin" -- a pejorative term. The implication was that Christians used the term to ridicule country folk who tenaciously held on to what the Christians considered old-fashioned, outmoded Pagan beliefs. Those in the country were much slower in adopting the new religion of Christianity than were the city folks. They still followed the Greek state religion, Roman state religion, Mithraism, various mystery religions, etc., long after those in urban areas had converted.

Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, "paganus" came to mean "civilian" as opposed to "military." Christians often called themselves "miles Christi" (Soldiers of Christ). The non-Christians became "pagani" -- non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be implied.

C. Mohrmann suggests that the general meaning was any "outsider," -- a neutral term -- and that the other meanings, "civilian" and "hick," were merely specialized uses of the term.

By the third century CE, its meaning evolved to include all non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in widespread use today.

That last bit is most relevant at this point as you're stating that we've only recently twisted the meaning of the word ... but the way we use it has been in use since the 3rd century.

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

I don't know it looks like most of what it says there is in line with what I was saying. Also I'd be extremely interested to know what backs up the "some believe" statement regarding civilian. If that were true it would seem the word took an unexpected detour that it later lost. I would need to see some good support for that argument as it doesn't seem to fit with everything else.

[shadowwolf13]

I'd have to do a lot of looking and such that I really can't do at the moment.

But, what you're saying, how I'm reading it, is that the term Pagan is an insult ... where as since the 3rd century it's been used to describe non-Christians, not necessarily as an insult, just a characteristic of being. Kind of like saying that some people are short and some people are tall.

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

Well we have "Most modern Pagan sources interpret the word to have meant "rustic," "hick," or "country bumpkin" -- a pejorative term." (ie "most" sources, even Pagan ones, consider it to have been a pejorative, ie insulting, term)

"Some believe..." which as noted I find unsupported

and "By the third century CE, its meaning evolved to include all non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in widespread use today."

So yes, there is among all the references to it being an insult also a reference to that it can refer to all non-christians. I submit that it is BOTH, it is a pejorative term for all non-christians.

[theafaye.livejournal.com]

You already know my thoughts on the matter.

Incidentally, as far as the image is concerned, I wouldn't take Wiki or Google as a definitive guide to who She is. I've written articles about how images have been misattributed before and you know as well as I do just how easily misunderstandings are proliferated on the internet. Indeed, I did one that looked at an image at Bath Spa that's been described as a "Gorgon" for donkeys years but is nothing of the sort. They're starting now to recognise that it probably isn't a Gorgon, but it's amazing how difficult it is to unseat mistakes when they've taken hold.

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

Hmm touche. I did go over to the Athena article on wiki to read more about Athena specifically and there was nothing in the Athena article about her having wings. I wonder...

[theafaye.livejournal.com]

Exactly. What seems to have happened in the past is that people have gone "oh it has one attribute of that other God so it must be the same person" without really looking any closer. Plus there is also the fact that there were a lot of extremely localised deities so it might be someone related to Athena but not actually Her.

I'd be more inclined to go with something along the lines of what agirlnamedluna said. I'd have to research the image and area more fully to give an informed opinion about who she definitely is though.

Winged Athena / Victoria / Unknown

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

Hmmm I bet you there's scholarship on this bust out there. Now that you've pushed my OCD buttons I might have to search for a scholarly take on it.


But yeah did you see my entry about the quote about bees misattributed to Einstein? Perfect example of everyone citing someone else for a source but they're all wrong.

Re: Winged Athena / Victoria / Unknown

[theafaye.livejournal.com]

I missed that one. Link?

I've not been paying as much attention as I normally do because of all the book stuff. It's pretty mad panic right now!

[karmasoup.livejournal.com]

The kitten is so precious! Kinda reminds me of a Trash the Dress event, but with a kitten! (Hmmmm... wondering if we could get a kitten in a dress... ;)

cats

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

There were lots of kittens among the ruins. I'm told in Rome itself they've made some of the ruins an actual official "cat sanctuary." Someday cats will reclaim everything. (:

Re: cats

[karmasoup.livejournal.com]

Cats RULE... haha, I like it!

[thenodrin.livejournal.com]

When I was a child, I attended The First Christian Church of Hinton. I had friends who went to the Catholic Church, or one of the Methodist Churches, or one of the Baptist Churches, or etc. But, mine didn't have such a distinction.

And, I remember filling out a school survey that asked my religion. I had to mark "Other" because there wasn't a space marked "Christian" but spaces marked for specific religions under that umbrella.

Today, if I am asked I usually tell people I am a pagan, mainly because they accept that as a religion and not a religious category. And, that makes me remember the frustration I had as a child trying to say that I was a Christian and it makes me giggle.

Theno

[joeymichaels.livejournal.com]

That kitten is awesome.

The entry, too.

Also, Extra + points for X-Men reference in Sequel. Assuming you meant this time traveling Bishop.

[onda-bianca.livejournal.com]

Interesting, I never gave the term "Pagan" much thought. Bonus points for the random kitten. :)

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

:3

[boxsofrain.livejournal.com]

I have been waiting for this from you. :)

[emo-snal.livejournal.com]

:D