aggienaut: (dictator)
[personal profile] aggienaut

   Once upon a time last october I was standing in the sand in the middle of the Red Sea. I looked up and saw the wobbly distorted silhouettes of boats some 100 feet above me. A moray eel glided between some rocks nearby. The dive instructor made a signal and I pressed a button on my scuba suit. The inflatable vest filled with air until I released the button, and with my increased volume-weight ratio I floated gently off the sea floor until I reached a new equilibrium a few feet higher, and swam off toward the instructor.


   It was around this time that a thought struck me. Zeppelins float effortlessly through the air due to buoyancy, but require power to move about. Sailing vessels move about effortlessly due to the sails harnessing the wind power, but obviously are not buoyant enough to float about in the air. What if one could combine these two things?

My contribution to the new game 'how fast can you draw a zeppelin'
Fig. 1 - A hastily drawn and coloured zeppelin

   What if you took a zeppelin, as pictured above, and put sails on it, as pictured below:

A zeppelin with full normal ship's rigging inverted below it. Three square rigged masts with a forestaysail and aft staysail

   As I floated buoyantly there in the crystal clear Red Sea reefs I began to expand on this idea. Why not conserve space and make the sails themselves on such a vessel also the bags of lighter-than-air gas?

See description below. For all of these actually there should be a thorough explanation in the text

   No need to make the sails square, a lense-like slice of a circle would probably be more efficient. They would be concave on the back to provide the wind something to push against and convex on the forward side to increase volume.
   Obviously the vessel in this picture has a much higher hull-airbag ratio than the zeppelin, one might have to tinker with even bigger sails and/or perhaps also putting bags of lighter-than-air gas within the hull (providing of course that the hull remain heavier than the sails so it doesn't reverse-capsize.


   But then it further occurred to me that the reason sailing works is because, while the wind is pushing against the sails in whatever direction it happens to be blowing, the vessel can only move in one direction due to its keel (well two, but you aim not to be going backwards). So these vessels clearly need keels. See Fig 3 below:

and now because I'm on the road and in a hurry I include Figs 3, 4, 5 & 7 on one page

   And, as I probably completely spaced out from whatever the diving instructor was trying to pantomime to me, I contemplated further: I know that square rigged sails (ie those that are perpendicular to the vessel) are better for harnessing the power of the wind if it is relatively coming from behind, but you can't sail at a very good angle INTO the wind -- fore-aft sails, ie sails that are parallel to the length of the vessel, ie Those Triangular Ones, are much better at maneuvering at angles to the wind. Up in the wild blue yonder there will no doubt be no shortage of wind, so it would be more valuable to go with the greater maneuverability option. This, it turned out, opened up a whole new pandora's box of problems.

   In Fig 4 you see a fore aft vessel with giant keel. This looks like it could be a simple ocean-going vessel but keep in mind these sails still must contain lighter-than-air gas. In this case they are shaped in three dimensions like giant ravioli or pillows, again with a concave and convex side. I'd imagine one could arrange it so that the pressure of the wind will push whichever side you are using for that into the concave side.

   In Fig 5 you see my realization that we no longer need a mast to hold these sails up, since they are holding themselves up above the ship (or rather, holding the entire ship up ... though now with less than three masts by age of sail terminology it would no longer be a ship but a boat). Also I realize that now we can fix our airbag-hull ratio a bit since the sails can be wildly bigger than the hull.

a vessel with a two fore-aft sails and a giant keel... where the mast should be!

   But of course to sail with these sails you'd traditionally loosen the ropes leading to the aft end of each sail, allowing the wind to blow it into an angle where the wind is more fully hitting it. At the arrangement we have in Fig 5 loosening these lines would... just make the sail raise up higher above the vessel (or, again, actually it would just lower the vessel's hull). So that brings us to Figs 6 & 7, where we have placed sort of horizontal masts off abeam on both sides in order to run lines from them to the ends of the sails so the sails can be swung about without simply raising up and down.
   While we're at it, just for fun, we decided to utilize the Kutta–Joukowski theorem in shaping these protrusions, what fun!
   Also, why put the keel on the bottom where it will utterly flummox your attempts at landing when you may as well continue the inversion and run it upwards between the sails. This could also house some lighter-than-air gas-bags within itself.

   And so, there you have it, my hare brained theory as to how one could make a totally steam-punk flying dirigible schooner. An idea wildly conceived 100 feet below the surface of the Red Sea, perhaps only attributable to suffering from abnormal levels of oxygen at the time!

Date: 2010-03-24 05:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] teaberryblue.livejournal.com
I would ride on one of these!

Date: 2010-03-24 05:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Me toooooo I think it would be the awesomest thing evar!
(deleted comment)

Date: 2010-03-25 05:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Giant ravioli!

Date: 2010-03-24 05:37 am (UTC)
drcuriosity: (Default)
From: [personal profile] drcuriosity
Reminds me a bit of some of our concept art :-)

Date: 2010-03-24 05:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Neat. You guys should draw a picture of my Fig 6/7 model in action :D

Date: 2010-03-24 10:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mstrobel.livejournal.com
That is awesome XD

Date: 2010-03-24 07:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Steampunk ftw!

Date: 2010-03-24 11:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] comedychick.livejournal.com
You are like a King of new inventions, aren't you?

Date: 2010-03-24 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Wait you mean this isn't Invention Idol?? I may be in the wrong place!!

Date: 2010-03-24 11:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egbert.livejournal.com
Hmm, a keel works because it goes against the water, which is much more resistant to movement than air, thus controlling the direction of the wind. If your keel 'medium' is the same as the air, I think what you'll have is a fairly unmaneuverable device. A kick in the ass ride, but probably going essentially with the wind wherever it wants to take you. Of course, all great ideas have to start somewhere...

(P.S. now I'm jonesing to go diving somewhere, which is OK, I'll be on the great barrier in June)

Date: 2010-03-24 07:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Dammit! /:

Hmmm back to the drawing board. I'll make this work somehow dammit!


Another interesting related thought I had is that one could test such a design by making a model nd trying to navigate it submerged in water, thus simulating the problems of having the sails & keel in a medium of the same resistance.

Date: 2010-03-24 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] baxaphobia.livejournal.com
Don't let Balloon boy get hold of this or it would be a tabloid nightmare! haha

You think too much! Smile

Date: 2010-03-24 08:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
I remember on the way out for that trip, in the JFK airport in New York, as I came out of the gate there was a huge circle of people glued to a television monitor, the kind of thing that only happens when there's liek some kind of disaster unfolding live or something, and it was the balloon boy incident. This was before we knew the kid wasn't in it, so there was just grainy footage of the balloon and talk about the boy actually being in it. It was crazy.

Date: 2010-03-24 04:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] technophobe1975.livejournal.com
Quick - to the patent office!

Date: 2010-03-24 08:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Though really, if someone steals this idea and makes it (because lord knows I don't have the resources to make a dirigible right now) I think it would be awesome.

Date: 2010-03-24 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vakratunda.livejournal.com
You have two dirigible hulls connected by an extensible cable.

You float them in layers of air that are moving in different directions.

You vary the aspect they present to the wind with control surfaces and gyroscopes and such. Sails are optional.

I've been talking about craft like this in the airship community for fifteen years or more.

.

Date: 2010-03-24 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Hmmm I see what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense. How far apart would these hulls have to be though?

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From: [identity profile] vakratunda.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-24 10:13 pm (UTC) - Expand

BTW

Date: 2010-03-24 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vakratunda.livejournal.com
I didn't invent this.

Any bright new idea you have about lighter than air was thought up a hundred years ago or more, and patented, probably by Konstantin Tsiolkovski.

.

Re: BTW

Date: 2010-03-24 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Yeah I kinda figured this whole thing would be thoroughly thought-over by now.

On a similar note I was wondering why the Romans or Greeks didn't have paddle-wheel boats the other day, being as they certainly had the technology to convert rotational force through gears into force rotating in another direction, a la mills of all sorts. They obviously didn't have the steam power more recent paddle-wheelers have run on but there's nothing stopping them from hooking up some oxen to a capstan. This was actually the thinking that led me to make that post a bit back about the comparative horsepower of people and various beasts of burden. Anyway a little research turned out that the Romans DID build such vessels (but I suppose it must not have worked out terribly well for them being as they were relegated to relative obscurity) and the Chinese actually had fleets of them. Neat stuff.

Date: 2010-03-24 07:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] roina-arwen.livejournal.com
I think you have far too much time on your hands, but it does look intriguing!

Date: 2010-03-24 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
I think that really really can hardly be said. I've been traveling and in the company of the lovely and delightful [livejournal.com profile] whirled and at the time I made the above post we were both in a hurry to get our entries out and get packed and get to bed because we were leaving at 7am for the airport.

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From: [identity profile] roina-arwen.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-24 08:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-24 08:35 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-03-24 11:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cacophonesque.livejournal.com
I love you and your contraptions! And I will ride about in your dirigible once it is built! And feast upon wafels in the sky!

Date: 2010-03-25 06:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Mmmm sky wafels!!

Date: 2010-03-25 01:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fourzoas.livejournal.com
I hate flying, but I might actually enjoy the novelty of this experience...once it's been thoroughly tested, of course! ;-)

Date: 2010-03-25 06:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
:D


There's actually a blimp/zeppelin that tours around offering "zeppelin rides." I found it once while googling something about zeppelins (you know, like ya do). I was really excited until I realized that it was several hundred dollars for even a short ride.

Date: 2010-03-25 02:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lawchicky.livejournal.com
You're so darned CREATIVE. You know most people just accept what's in the world around them, but it seems like you always take things that extra step. Very admirable :)

Date: 2010-03-25 06:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Thanks (:

I really do believe in "question everything." And I love thinking about how processes can be done differently or better. I've often found myself looking at the steam escaping from the wax melter at work and thinking "if only we could find a way to harness the power of this escaping steam..."

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] beautyofgrey.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-25 05:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-03-25 12:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] onda-bianca.livejournal.com
Haha, this is awesome. :)

Date: 2010-03-25 05:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
:D thanks

Date: 2010-03-25 03:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sra33.livejournal.com
Back in high school Physics class, we had to build a car with a sail. Said car raced other cars. Who had the least amount of resistance, who had the sail put on properly?

Of course we had limited items we could use, too.

We had a fan set on the floor for us. The first round was straight forward. The second round was to go sideways against the wind... Everyone had to participate, and I can't remember where my group placed, but we were of the higher participants.

Then came the BONUS ROUND for those who wanted to participate. You had to get your "sail car" to travel against the wind! They were timed, the fastest sail car won.

My group? Second place (out of the 5 who participated). BOOYA! ^^

I also gained a renewed respect for those crazy enough to attempt going out on water with nothing but a sail to send you where you wanted it to go. Scary.

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From: [identity profile] sra33.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-25 04:57 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-25 05:32 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] sra33.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-25 08:12 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-25 09:06 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] sra33.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-25 09:07 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-25 09:18 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-03-25 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spydielives.livejournal.com
Up up and away...

Date: 2010-03-25 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
Excelsior!

Date: 2010-03-25 05:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beautyofgrey.livejournal.com
Love this. :) You make me want to go home and doodle out my own steam punk dirigibles.

Date: 2010-03-25 09:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
I highly encourage this activity! :D

Date: 2010-03-26 01:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] imafarmgirl.livejournal.com
lol. Your mind is a busy place.

Date: 2010-03-26 07:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
(: thanks

Date: 2010-03-26 02:18 am (UTC)
shadowwolf13: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowwolf13
I love seeing how your mind comes up with things like this. :)

Date: 2010-03-26 07:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
(: thanks

Date: 2010-03-27 09:24 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-03-27 10:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rattsu.livejournal.com
I am glad than more people than me gets drawn into these kind of things... loved it!

Date: 2010-03-28 03:48 pm (UTC)
connie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] connie
I loved the evolution of this idea as you thought about it. That was really fascinating (as was the idea itself, of course!).

Date: 2010-03-29 02:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emo-snal.livejournal.com
(: thanks. It would have made sense to just skip to the final iteration of it but yeah I thought I'd walk the reader through the evolution of the idea. (:

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